Conversation with the Magnificent Monisha Harrell

Conversation with the Magnificent Monisha Harrell

Today Crystal is  joined by the legend that is Monisha Harrell to talk about public safety  and policing bills in the state legislature, Bruce Harrell’s run for  office, and mainstream Seattle politics finally realizing that there is  more than one Black leader in Seattle.

As always, a full text transcript of the show is available below and at

Find the host, Crystal Fincher on Twitter at @finchfrii and find today’s guest, Monisha Harrell, at @RuleSeven. More info is available at


Learn more about the passage of Initiative 940 last fall here:

Read about how previously fired cops end up back on the force here:

Read the recent Crosscut  in-depth report on cops with credibility issues still working in  Washington State (by friend of the show and previous guest, Melissa  Santos):

Learn more about the bills discussed on the show today here:

Follow all police accountability bills before the legislature this year here:


Crystal Fincher: [00:00:00]  Welcome to Hacks & Wonks. I'm your host, Crystal Fincher. On this  show, we talk to political hacks and policy wonks to gather insight into  local politics and policy through the lens of those doing the work and  provide behind the scenes perspectives on politics in our state. Full  transcripts and resources referenced in the show are always available at and in our episode notes.

We  are thrilled today to be joined by Monisha Harrell. Thank you for  joining us, Monisha. Well, I just wanted to take some time to actually  read your full bio, which I'm indulging myself in doing. Because a lot  of times we hear about people - we see you in one capacity or another  capacity. Lots of people know you're the Board Chair for Equal Rights  Washington, you've done work around politics and around legislation and  policing, but they don't know the full story. And I just enjoy,  especially for women and people of color, just to really understand what  you've done and what you've been involved in.

So  let me tell you who Monisha Harrell is. She's a Seattle native, Board  Chair for Equal Rights Washington, and she chairs the National LGBTQ  Task Force Action Fund. She served as a fellow for Lifelong AIDS  Alliance, co-chair of the Capitol Hill LGBTQ Public Safety Task Force.  She's an appointee of the City of Seattle's 2017 search committee for a  new director of police accountability and co-chair for the De-escalate  Washington Campaign Committee, requiring deescalation training for all  law enforcement officers in the state in 2018. The Stranger named  Monisha one of the smartest people in Seattle politics - I concur - in  2013. And she was most recently honored as the Greater Seattle Business  Association's Community Leader of the Year for 2018.

As  chair of Equal Rights Washington, Monisha helped lead the work to ban  conversion therapy for minors in Washington state, pass an updated  uniform parentage act to support LGBTQ families, and banned trans panic  and gay panic as legal defenses for violence against the LGBTQ community  - still such a critical issue. Harrell was recently appointed in July  2020 by Governor Inslee to serve on a task force to provide  recommendations for legislation on independent investigations involving  police use of force, and recently completed work as a member of the  Washington State Attorney General Bob Ferguson's Hate Crime Advisory  Working Group. In 2019, Monisha participated in a leadership exchange  program with the American Council of Young Political Leaders, supporting  LGBTQ community advancement in both Thailand and Malaysia.

Monisha  owns and operates a small marketing firm, Rule Seven, focused on  offering community-driven outreach and engagement. She has an  undergraduate degree from Columbia University and an MBA from the  University of Washington Foster School of Business. In 2017, she was  named the University of Washington Consulting and Business Development  Center's Alumni of the Year.

Man,  Monisha. <laughter> You - that's Monisha, and I have admired  Monisha and watched her just do her thing and impact policy and politics  and life for a lot of people - we were just talking, for a decade plus  now. And just seriously, one of the smartest people in Washington  politics - in politics period. If you want to figure out a successful  path for whatever you want to do, Monisha can make that happen, so I am  just thrilled to have you on the show today.

Monisha Harrell: [00:04:10]  Thanks so much, Crystal. It's hard to believe it's been a decade of  working together. It's amazing because one, I don't feel that old, but I  learned so much from your leadership in those early phases,  particularly of politics and really learning how to navigate political  circles, particularly as a young Black woman. It's been a great decade  together and looking forward to many, many more decades ahead for us.

Crystal Fincher: [00:04:48]  Absolutely. I mean, you've gone global with your influence and  advocacy, so I'm just watching and cheerleading from the sidelines over  here. But what I wanted to talk about - something you're involved in -  in a variety of ways and have been, are the policing bills going through  the legislature right now, the entire conversation about what we need  to do and how we need to change that. I guess starting off, and just a  recap or overview in what is happening in Olympia right now? There was  lots of fanfare going into the session in response to demands from  community that we finally take action to stop some of the abuses and the  violence that we have seen from police, and just the absolute lack of  accountability in so many spaces. What is on the table to address that  right now?

Monisha Harrell: [00:05:48]  Yeah, absolutely. I'll start back with Initiative 940, De-Escalate  Washington. That work was really - it was really interesting because  there wasn't a lot of political will around it back when that work was  beginning in 2016 and 2017. There were a lot of people in positions of  power who really believed that the work around police accountability was  being kind of blown out of proportion. Communities of color,  particularly Black communities, have often been the canaries in the coal  mine when it comes to, "No, please listen to us, this is important, and  this is serious." And the great thing about the work with De-Escalate  Washington was it hearkened back to "The Four Amigos", right?  Communities from different segments of the state coming together and  saying, "We're going to use our collective power in order to create the  change that we know we need to see." And people said, "If you pass  Initiative 940, you'll have people leaving policing in droves. You'll  never have enough police to be able to fill all the spots." And here's  what happened. We knew the public was with us. The public wanted reform  and the people spoke, and the people spoke loudly. Halls of power  weren't ready to address policing issues that our communities were.

Fast  forward to last summer, to George Floyd. And if we had voted on  De-Escalate Washington last summer, the numbers would have even been  higher. But we knew that that initiative was just the beginning. We knew  that there is no one single piece of legislation - to be candid,  there's not 10 pieces of legislation - that are going to solve the  problems that we need to solve around police accountability.

And  so, 940 was a start. And the tailwinds of last year gave us the  political power to be able to go back to legislators who were like, "Our  districts are basically up in arms. What do we do?" And then we had  their ears - "Okay. We've been trying to tell you what to do. But now  that you're saying, what do we do? Here's the package." And that's where  we ended up this year. I'd love to talk just a little bit about some of  the package that was offered and some of what's moving forward.

Crystal Fincher: [00:08:28]  Yeah. What is in that package? I mean certainly, we did see protests  and just people sick and tired of seeing over and over again, violence  against - disproportionately - people of color. But certainly  dramatically impacting the disabled community - I mean, communities far  and wide, this is affecting all of us. And then no accountability  afterwards. It just feels like this lawless attack on community, where  we are actually powerless. If someone who's not wearing a badge commits a  crime - that should never have happened, but when it does, there is  accountability. But if you have a badge, it's just completely different.  How is that being addressed with legislation?

Monisha Harrell: [00:09:20]  The interesting thing that we learned, and I'll say it over and over  again, there's no one piece of legislation that's perfect and that will  fix everything. One of the things we learned from Initiative 940 was -  we passed a law that required de-escalation training for all law  enforcement officers in Washington state, that required an independent  investigation for lethal use of force incidents by law enforcement. And  what we found is that - we expected, naively, officers of the law to  follow the law. But without teeth, Initiative 940 was ineffective. It  was legally put in place, but we found that there were so many police  departments and law enforcement agencies that weren't following it. And  so, that's not a mistake that will repeat again. That is something that  we learned from that.

And  so, this year's police accountability legislation shows, actually, that  we've learned and we're beginning to put teeth in some of what is being  passed as legal. I'll kind of start with Senate bill 5051, sponsored by  Senator Jamie Pedersen. That bill has a pathway for de-certification for  law enforcement officers that have histories of misconduct. Prior to  this bill, and as it stands right now - we haven't passed it yet - but  prior to, if you have an officer that's got a history of misconduct in  one department, well they basically can just say, "Well I'm about to get  in trouble for all this stuff over here, let me go 10 miles down the  road to that police department." And then they get a whole clean slate.  The investigation at the previous department - it ends - and over at  this new department, they have a brand new record and they're a shiny  new officer again.

And  what we've found is that, it's those officers - these incidents like  George Floyd, they don't just happen. Derek Chauvin, he had a record of  misconduct. If in Minnesota, they had a way to begin to de-certify  officers that have records and histories of misconduct, he wouldn't have  even been on the job that day. So we as Washington State, we've taken  that responsibility to say, "No, you can't just switch departments and  get a clean record. We're actually going to ensure that your history  follows your career. And if you're not deserving of a badge and gun, a  state sanctioned badge and gun, then you shouldn't have a state  sanctioned badge and gun." That's the gist around Senate bill 5051. It  looks that it will be passing this year. It's cleared both the Senate,  and then it's cleared the House committee. It's just ready to come to  the Floor for a vote.

Crystal Fincher: [00:12:20]  That's really interesting, and on that issue, certainly, it is a big  problem where officers can just department hop, to escape their past.  And they do successfully escape them.

Monisha Harrell: [00:12:35]  Look at Ian Birk, right? Everybody said that the John T. Williams  shooting was unjustified, and what did he do? He left Seattle and he  went to Shoreline. So again, 10 miles north, and he's got a whole new  career.

Crystal Fincher: [00:12:50]  Yeah. It's a big problem. It looks like that's going to pass. Is there  anything else that looks like it's also going to pass?

Monisha Harrell: [00:12:58]  We surprisingly got a really sturdy slate this year - not that there's  not more to do - but another one and I'll relate it again back to the  Chauvin case and George Floyd's death. We have Senate bill 5066, which  is duty to report and duty to intervene. What that bill basically says  is - if you are an officer and you see another officer using excessive  use of force, you now have a duty, a responsibility - a legal  responsibility - to intervene in that excessive use of force in order to  save that person's life. So unlike in the case of George Floyd, where  you saw officers standing by, it would now be illegal for them to just  stand by and watch another human being be murdered, when they have the  power to do something about it. That originated in the Senate and is  ready to come to the House.

Another  one passed both chambers yesterday - it passed the Senate last night,  which was House bill 1054, which is law enforcement tactics bill. And  again, I'll go back to the George Floyd case just because it's such a  good example of all of the things that can go wrong and that have gone  wrong. But in House bill 1054, it will ban choke holds and neck  restraints, as well as a few other police tactics - no-knock warrants,  in the case of Breonna Taylor. It would ban those police tactics for all  law enforcement officers in Washington State. These are good practices.  These are good policies. They're not theoretical, because we can point  to the real life cases of where, with this in place, we would have saved  lives.

Crystal Fincher: [00:14:56]  It certainly appears that those bills do have legs and that they are an  improvement over current policy. I don't think that there's many people  who are earnestly trying to address this issue, who don't think those  are improvements over good policy. It is - just looking at the  conversation and where we are now - is so much different than where we  were 5 years ago, 10 years ago. And even just in the public  conversations around the idea of reform, they're like, "Okay, we're  actually over reform. It's time to transform and to reconfigure, to  fundamentally revisit how we address the structure and function of  public safety and policing. Down to examining - why do we need an armed  response to the wide variety - to everything, really, right now - and  how do we change that? And do we need police to respond, period?

And  models of community-based alternatives to an armed police response or a  police response, period. And people saying, "We don't have the time to  keep tinkering around the edges and for incremental change in the public  safety process, because people continue to die." Even when it's not the  worst case scenario with dying, people are having their civil rights  violated, their lives turned upside down. Even if they're unjustly  arrested because they were over policed and now they're saddled with  legal bills and missing work, just to get out of something that they  never should have gotten into. Looking on the front end -

Monisha Harrell: [00:16:50] Yeah.

Crystal Fincher: [00:16:50] Can that be addressed in the legislature? How do you see that? How do you address that?

Monisha Harrell: [00:16:56]  There are so many people in this fight, and in this battle, right? I'm  one person, one type of person. I always say when you're a hammer, every  problem looks like a nail. I'm a policy person, so I'm dealing with it  from a policy perspective because that's where my expertise is. I am  grateful, grateful, grateful for the folks who, maybe they're not the  policy person, but they put the boots to the ground and they protest.  They give us the wings to be able to do this policy work, right? I have  had many great and wonderful conversations with Nikkita Oliver, and we  have a different approach to how we show love within community and how  we do this work. You need all types. You need all types of leadership to  be able to step up and step into the places where they provide  expertise to do it.

We  don't talk enough about things like, do we need an armed response? The  answer is no, we don't always need an armed response. In fact, there's  probably very few times where you actually need an armed response to a  certain situation, particularly because, and this is where Nikkita and I  will probably agree, a lot of times 911 is called after the incident.

Crystal Fincher: [00:18:22] Mm-hmm [affirmative].

Monisha Harrell: [00:18:22]  So you don't need an armed response when the incident has passed. Now  we have different approaches for how to get there. But I think what  we're working for, I think ultimately the vision of what we're working  for in community, is very similar, right? We need less policing, right?  We need more resources so that there's a requirement for less policing.  We need more money into education and social services, so that we can  spend less on what is called criminal justice. I don't think anybody is  disagreeing with all of those things. We don't want to spend our money  punitively. We want to be able to pool our resources into what lifts us  up, not what holds us down.

What  people may think are very different people - we're actually not that  different. We're just working from different angles. We have different  perspectives and we have different strengths. You need all of those  different strengths to be able to come to the table, to be a part of the  conversation, to figure out where do we go and how do we get there,  right? What I'll also say is - you made me think of it with the choke  holds - it's not just that they cause death. We're talking about the  scars that they leave on communities. If you cut off somebody's oxygen  for a minute, you may not leave them without life, but you leave them  without brain.

Crystal Fincher: [00:20:04] Mm-hmm [affirmative].

Monisha Harrell: [00:20:07]  Seconds without oxygen is brain death. So maybe they are still walking  of this earth and their body is living, but you've left them with mental  impairment, permanent lifetime mental impairment. That's what we're  talking about, right? There are better solutions and we have to be  willing. We have to be willing to work towards those better solutions.

Crystal Fincher: [00:20:32]  We do. And I appreciate, just you addressing that in your response and  talking about - people have different expertise and are in different  lanes. And that we need all of those lanes. We need all of those lanes  pushing, in order to actually get change accomplished. Pushing in just  one of those is not sufficient. I think we have seen, in a variety of  situations - that okay, if people are only paying attention in the  policy sphere with no connection to community, with no mandate from  folks in the community and in the streets - that that leaves people in a  position where they don't have power on the inside. And if we're only  talking about what's happening in terms of protest and community  engagement, then turning that into policy or impacting the institutions  that really, whether we choose to or not, we have to engage with in our  daily lives - that there is no change made there. And that things stay  as they are, and the status quo is unacceptable.

So  it really does take pushing by people in politics and policy, and  community organizations engaging in meetings and on the street - to get  it all done. And there are so many conversations about, "Well, which way  is better? Either or. Do we do this or do we do that?" And my response  to that is always, "It takes all of it." We make a change when we are  pushing in all of our different lanes to get that accomplished. I  appreciate your lane, it's necessary. I appreciate the lane of people  who are in the streets and holding power accountable that way, because  that is a lever of accountability and necessary. It just takes all of  it. We can't just say - we can't do part of it. It's unfortunate that  people who are being harmed have been the ones who've had to mount up  and lead in fixing the issue. That should not be the case, but  unfortunately, that is the situation that we're in right now.

Monisha Harrell: [00:23:05]  Absolutely. It's always been an and. It's always been an and. You need  Rosa Parks and Medgar Evers. You need Malcolm X and Dr. Martin Luther  King. You need James Baldwin and Lorraine Hansberry. You need and, and a  call-out, right? And we need our allies. Sometimes you're going to be  the leader, and sometimes you're going to be an ally - and if you see a  situation, the best way to get this work done is to join in community  with others, where sometimes you're going to be the leader and sometimes  you're going to be an ally, but you have to add your strength in order  to change these systems. Because these systems - power will never  concede itself, we know that. We hear that over and over again. Power  won't concede itself, but if we work together, we can do anything.

Crystal Fincher: [00:23:55]  Absolutely, and I'm glad you brought that up because that is actually  one of the things that I personally appreciate most about you - is that  you're always willing to be an ally. People see when you're out in  front, but I have been able to see several opportunities across several  policy spheres, and in community, in organizing, supporting, where  you've just been like, "Hey. However I can help, however I can support. I  know how to do this and the other. I can make a connection." You have  always offered yourself as a resource and as an ally in supporting. I  know that has been instrumental in so many things happening in so many  different areas. Just the amount of policy that you have been involved  in across the sphere - in campaigns, elections, ballot initiatives - the  list is long that people know about, but where you have been really  supportive and instrumental in your knowledge has been helpful, that  list is much more broad.

Monisha Harrell: [00:25:02]  I've had so many people invest in me, right? It's a requirement. It's a  requirement to be able to give back, because - I never know what the  story is that people think of me or see of me, but I was born to two  teenage parents. My mom was still in high school - I'm in the 1976  Garfield yearbook in the little nursery that they had there, right? And  yet, I have still had people who have invested so much in me, who have  given so much of themselves, so much of their time, their energy, their  wisdom, and I feel the responsibility to pay that forward. I really do  feel like, despite the hard times, I have been incredibly fortunate. The  only way for me to show that, my love language, is paying that forward  to other folks.

Crystal Fincher: [00:26:03]  Well I've been a beneficiary of that, I appreciate it. I know many  others who appreciate it. And yeah, I'm just thankful.

Now,  I do have to ask you about your uncle. I don't know if people know your  last name is Harrell. You share a last name with Bruce Harrell, who is a  former Seattle City councilman. He was briefly the mayor.

Monisha Harrell: [00:26:36] Five days.

Crystal Fincher: [00:26:36]  Five days. And now he is running, for the second time actually, running  to be Mayor of Seattle. And he has caught my attention.

Monisha Harrell: [00:26:48] Yeah.

Crystal Fincher: [00:26:49]  Principally for a couple of statements that he's made on this subject  of policing. One, when he - I think it was when he was announcing and he  was talking about the subject of policing - and said that the first  thing he's going to do, is have officers watch the video of George Floyd  and sign a pledge saying that that's unacceptable. And then last week,  few days ago - time is running into itself for me. But within the past  week, said another statement, "Hey, if I'm mayor and we go a week  without having a shooting or a murder of a Black person, we're going to  go to the precincts and high five the officers."

Monisha Harrell: [00:27:43]  Yeah. So here's what I'm going to say. He is actually quite smart and  he is good for sound bites, right? He gives a sound bite that gives  people something to talk about. You have to get to the bottom of - but  what is he really getting at? What is he actually talking about? And  what he's talking about is culture change, right? We have to have a  culture change in policing, and particularly at SPD, in order to be able  to effectuate real change. And it's an example of a thing that would be  done, but not the only thing done. It's an example of, how do you  ensure that if you're going to invest in an officer, if you're going to  invest training in an officer, education into an officer, support into  an officer, that you have a baseline to even start with.

And  so, watching the George Floyd video - it shows - can this person even  admit at a baseline level that that is wrong? If they can't admit that's  wrong, then any amount of education or training that we try to put into  this person is going to be wasted. They're not who we spend energy on.  It comes out sounding really simplistic, because it's a sound bite  versus what you're actually getting at, which is not everybody is suited  to be an officer. And we have to admit that. We have to admit that  there are people - not everybody is suited to every job. And how do you  just, at a baseline level, root out who is not suited for that job?

And  so you get this over simplified example. But it's actually - as an  example, it shows you what kind of conversations we have to be willing  to have. We have to be willing to say, "This person is not suited for  this role. We are not going to expend education and resources into  trying to train this person for something that they are just - we can't  teach this value. If you can't see this and say that's wrong, there's no  amount of sitting you behind the desk and training you, that is ever  going to get you to the point where you realize that that's wrong."

I  get it. It's definitely something that people talk about, but hopefully  they also kind of get to the deeper issue around that, which is we have  to determine who has the basis, who has the heart, to do public service  and public safety, be a servant leader in that way. And who just, it's  not a job that's a fit for you. It's not going to be a job that's going  to be a fit for you. And we need to move you on.

Crystal Fincher: [00:30:38]  I appreciate your perspective and context around that. That certainly  is a conversation worth having, and one I think that we should. I'm  looking forward to the full, robust debate about policing in Seattle  overall, from all of the candidates and evaluating who is best suited,  in terms of the ability to lead, and enacting the policies we need with a  sense of urgency that it requires. I'm looking forward to that  continuing throughout the place. And what else I appreciate about this,  is that we have a number of people of color running. We have more than  one Black person in the race. We have some of everybody. I've said this  before and I think is useful - we aren't all the same. We are not a  monolith. We have different opinions and different approaches and we  have the opportunity...

Monisha Harrell: [00:31:34] Thank God people are realizing that, right?

Crystal Fincher: [00:31:36] Right.

Monisha Harrell: [00:31:36] Thank God we don't have to all be the same person anymore.

Crystal Fincher: [00:31:40]  Yes. For those candidates whose perspectives I find myself aligned with  and others where I don't, I do think that it is useful for the wider  community to see a range of opinions and perspectives addressed, because  that's absolutely true and valid. We know that. We've known that, but  sometimes the wider community has a harder time engaging. I feel like  it's been in the past year or two, where they stopped referring to  people just as "Black leaders."

Monisha Harrell: [00:32:19] Right.

Crystal Fincher: [00:32:20]  That's okay, we don't elect Black leaders. For other people, they use  their title. For this person, it's "Black leader." Is there anything  else to the story? Or they'll just be like, "activist."

Monisha Harrell: [00:32:33] It's always funny, because I was always like, "When did we vote? When did we ..."

Crystal Fincher: [00:32:35] Right.

Monisha Harrell: [00:32:36]  And that - to be candid, that's annoyed me, beginning from the '80s.  When I started kind of thinking about it, they would say "Black leader"  and then they would have somebody talking on the news and I thought,  "Well, who elected them to speak for all of us?" I appreciate the fact  that there's more nuance these days. I have to give some credit to  social media for actually allowing us to have more of a voice, because  if we were relying on mainstream media, we'd still have just one Black  leader. I'm grateful that we get to have a few at this juncture. I get  to be on this program with one of our Black leaders, so I'm happy that  we get a full ... Look, this is radio, so y'all can...

Crystal Fincher: [00:33:24] I am not claiming that title, just to be clear - I'm a political consultant with a podcast. That's it.

Monisha Harrell: [00:33:30]  Look, I want people to understand - Crystal and I have a deep, deep  respect for each other, but could not be more different. Crystal is on  this radio show looking fabulous right now, and I'm sitting here in some  Adidas sweatpants. So I just want you all to know that there is many,  many ways to be, and we deserve the humanity to be able to be all of  those things and the entire robustness of how that shows up.

Crystal Fincher: [00:33:57] Oh my goodness. Okay. Yes, all of these things.

Okay.  We're in podcast only time and not in the airtime on the radio. Let's  just be real - I'm here. I just got into wigs, y'all. They're so simple  and easy and wonderful. <laughter>

Look!  I threw on this wig. I'm looking at Monisha on this online chat - weird  seeing each other, just we're not putting out the video on the podcast -  but I mean, look, it's just a wig. It's just a wig and I have my other  wig that you saw that I was wearing yesterday in the meeting that we  were in about something else. It's totally - it's a different color.  It's a different length, but they all take about two minutes to put  on...

Monisha Harrell: [00:34:43] I'm just saying ...

Crystal Fincher: [00:34:44] ... and look like I actually did something.

Monisha Harrell: [00:34:45] ... you look ready to go out. And I look ready to go take a nap. <laughter>

Crystal Fincher: [00:34:49]  And what you see, is just the very top. Look, you don't see the below  the screen situation happening right now. It's not consistent, I'll just  tell you that. It is not consistent with what this appears to be. And  even this is optimized for two minutes. Just in the interest of  realness, I think you probably spent more time getting ready and  prepared than I did today. I'm fairly positive about that.

Monisha Harrell: [00:35:19] Not in this Zoom world. In this Zoom world, I only gotta dress from the shoulders up. <laughter>

Crystal Fincher: [00:35:24]  That's the situation. And that's probably more information than you  bargained for, podcast listeners, but there you go. That's real. This is  where we're at.

Well, I  appreciate you taking the time to join us and talk to us today. I  appreciate you, Monisha, period. I appreciate you addressing your  uncle's comments and providing some more context and the basis for a  useful and necessary conversation. Just thank you.

Monisha Harrell: [00:35:56]  Yeah and I appreciate being here. It's always a pleasure to talk to  you, Crystal. And I listen to your show, I'm a big fan. I like Hacks and  Wonks, and I hope more people are listening, because they will learn as  much about politics from you as I have learned from you. So it's a  great opportunity.

Crystal Fincher: [00:36:18] You're too kind and I appreciate it, but thank you everyone and enjoy your day.

Thank  you for listening to Hacks and Wonks. Our chief audio engineer at KVRU  is Maurice Jones Jr. The producer of Hacks and Wonks is Lisl Stadler.  You can find me on Twitter @finchfrii, spelled F-I-N-C-H-F-R-I-I. And  now you can follow Hacks and Wonks on iTunes, Spotify, or wherever else  you get your podcasts. Just type in "Hacks and Wonks" into the search  bar. Be sure to subscribe to get our Friday almost live shows and our  mid-week show, delivered to your podcast feed. You can also get a full  text transcript of this episode and links to the resources referenced  during the show at and in the podcast episode  notes.

Thanks for tuning in. Talk to you next time.