Week in Review: April 2, 2021 - Marcus Harrison Green

Week in Review: April 2, 2021 - Marcus Harrison Green

This week Crystal and Marcus Harrison Green, publisher of the South Seattle Emerald and columnist with The Seattle Times,  go over the Kshama Sawant recall petition being allowed to move forward  by the WA Supreme Court, a pro-encampment sweep Seattle charter  amendment coated in flowery language about compassion, and Marcus’  recent column in The Seattle Times that asks: “Why does society shrug when Black men are killed in Seattle’s South End?”

As always, a full text transcript of the show is available below and at officialhacksandwonks.com.

Find the host, Crystal Fincher on Twitter at @finchfrii and find Marcus Harrison Green at @mhgreen3000. More info is available at officialhacksandwonks.com.


Read Marcus’ column here: https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/when-black-men-are-killed-in-seattles-south-end-why-does-society-shrug/?utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=owned_echobox_tw_m&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1617295546

Learn more about the pro-sweep proposed charter amendment here: https://publicola.com/2021/04/02/16919/

Find out more about the Kshama Sawant recall petition here: https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/politics/recall-effort-against-seattle-city-councilmember-kshama-sawant-can-move-forward-washington-supreme-court-rules/


Lisl Stadler: [00:00:00]  This is Lisl, producer of Hacks and Wonks. We wanted to let you know  that in this episode, around the 24:30 mark, there is some slightly  distorted audio. Remote recording during the pandemic is vulnerable to  people's fluctuating internet speeds, but we thought it was important  enough information to include. If you're having trouble understanding  what is said, you can refer to the full transcript included in the  episode notes and available at officialhacksandwonks.com.

Crystal Fincher: [00:00:50]  Welcome to Hacks and Wonks. I'm your host, Crystal Fincher. On this  show, we talk with political hacks and policy wonks to gather insight  into state and local politics and policy through the lens of those doing  the work and provide behind-the-scenes perspectives on politics in our  state. Full transcripts and resources referenced in the show are always  available at officialhacksandwonks.com and in our episode notes. Today,  we're continuing our Friday almost live shows where we review the news  of the week with a guest cohost.

Welcome  to the program today's co-host, publisher of the South Seattle Emerald  and columnist with the Seattle Times - had an excellent piece in the  Times this past week - Marcus Harrison Green.

Marcus Harrison Green: [00:01:28]  Crystal, it is so great to join you as always. I got to have you as my  hype person 'cause you just put a flavor in there, you just drop it, you  know? So thank you so much.

Crystal Fincher: [00:01:37]  Well, I mean, you deserve it! You deserve it - you are, you know -  South Seattle Emerald is killing it in all categories and it's just  fantastic and wonderful. And as if that wasn't enough, you're just like  dropping columns in the Seattle Times that have the entire city talking.  So I'm excited to have you here.

Marcus Harrison Green: [00:01:56] Excited to be here. I don't get a lot of sleep, as you know, so I'm highly caffeinated today just for you.

Crystal Fincher: [00:02:02]  I am joining you with the highly caffeinated crew. It is absolutely  crucial at this point in time - coming up near the end of session,  campaigns kicking off, and everyone just doing the most. And so I guess  we will start off talking about one piece of news that we got this week  out of the Supreme Court. And that was a ruling that the recall effort  against Seattle City Council member, Kshama Sawant, is allowed to move  forward. And there certainly was a lot of reaction to that. Do you want  to recap what happened there?

Marcus Harrison Green: [00:02:40]  Yeah. So it looks like this recall effort has been essentially really  going on since she was declared the victor in the last election cycle  here for D3, which is a majority of Capitol Hill and then a sliver of  the CID district as well.

It's,  you know, I got to say, this is one of those things where it seems like  there - as we know, Councilmember Sawant can be very polarizing in this  City. And she elicits a very strong reaction from people who are - who  love her, and people who do not. And so, it wasn't actually surprising  that, at least for me, certainly wasn't surprising that this recall  effort has continued on and it honestly wasn't surprising that it was  ruled that it could move forward.

Now  we will see whether or not - one of the rulings, I believe one of the  rulings was that it could not actually appear on the primary, which will  be happening in August, but it looks like it's - if they can collect  enough signatures and I think they needed to collect 33,000, that it can  appear on the ballot for the general election in November, which is  expected to have high turnout. You'll obviously have the mayoral race on  that ballot, along with the at-large City positions, which there are  two of them, of course. And so it's - if you were either, you know, a  person who was anti the recall or pro the recall, you have the largest  sample size and largest voting block, or at least you can anticipate  that, in November.

So it  should be pretty interesting, I'll say. It does look like some financial  backers for the pro recall folks - it looks like there's a member of  the Nordstrom family, as well as the political consultants, I should  say, Sound Strategies. So it's -

Crystal Fincher: [00:04:50] They're funding the recall effort against Sawant.

Marcus Harrison Green: [00:04:54]  Yes. The recall effort against Sawant - they are financial backers of  it, or have contributed to it, I should say. So it's no surprise there -  if you know some of the politics involved. I mean, people will  certainly, I think, categorize themselves as a progressive and liberal,  who were sort of, I don't know, just anti-Sawant. But that being said,  who knows, right? Who knows who people actually are or what their  motivations actually are. So.

Crystal Fincher: [00:05:26]  Well it'll be interesting and Soundview Strategies has certainly been  instrumental in electing and advising Jenny Durkan. So given her  rhetoric that many people viewed to be inflammatory against Sawant and  other more progressive councilmembers, last election cycle in the City  of Seattle, not surprising that they are pushing hard to get Sawant out.

But  it's also like, what do they think they would get in her place? Like  the district is voting her in, so that is clearly what they want. They  are - it's no surprise. They know exactly what they're getting - they  reelected her. So, if they think that all of a sudden they would get  this corporatist candidate, I don't know how they think - even if they  got Sawant out that fundamentally many things would change because the  district has made its preference clear multiple times now - it wasn't a  fluke.

Marcus Harrison Green: [00:06:30]  Yes. I mean, I think, you know, I guess it should be noted, right? That  it was a fairly close race between her - Sawant and Egan Orion, this  last go around, right? I mean, I think the initial count, at least the  first day count, I should say, had Egan Orion in the lead. As more and  more ballots were counted, obviously, by that Friday, I want to say that  it was pretty clear that Sawant was going to win. And so I think, you  know, this recall effort for Sawant is by people who just never wanted  her there in the first place. And they're essentially trying to exhaust  every single possibility they can to get her out.

Here's  the thing, I mean that - what, that was less than a year ago at this  point, where that election took place and there's already a recall  effort. I mean - look, whether you like Councilmember Sawant or you  don't, what has been the offense that she's supposedly done that it  warrants a recall -

Crystal Fincher: [00:07:32]  She's a socialist and that should scare you! - is, I think, where  people land on that one. And I think you hit the nail on the head. These  are people who didn't want her there in the first place. They're  viewing this as a remedy for accomplishing something that the election  couldn't or wouldn't, and is something that they're looking at there.

So,  you know, just reading the details here, it looks like petitioners now  have 180 days to collect 10,000 signatures from residents of District 3,  Sawant's district. And if they do, the recall election, which would not  be competitive - just an up or down vote on Sawant - would be held with  the general election in November or early next year. I'm sure, for many  reasons, including just economically and giving more of the City of  voice, the preference would be for it to be on the general election  ballot in November. But we will see what happens and we'll see how that  unfolds

It, you know,  there are a lot of people who just get really mad at the mention of  Councilmember Sawant. I remember there was an interview I did at a TV  station, that I will not name, shortly after that primary. After the  primary in the last cycle where Kshama did not finish in first place -  it was a crowded primary. And the newsperson kept asking me like, Okay,  well, you know, Kshama has no chance. right? And I'm like, Well,  actually, if you look at it - she has a really good chance. I would  rather be her than her opponent at this time. Because if you look at the  composition of candidates that were in that crowded primary, they  actually shared her positions. And the opposition was, you know, if  you're looking at the Amazon-funded - they didn't want the head tax.  Well, the candidates that got the majority of the votes across the board  favored the head tax. They favored positions that Kshama did. So just  looking at where the voters were, it looked like Kshama certainly wasn't  doomed. And as I said, I'd rather be her if I'm picking - I think she's  in the strongest position. They just looked at me like I had three  heads and like, Okay, she must just be this radical, you know, maybe  she's a secret socialist. This is a mistake asking her about this race.

Marcus Harrison Green: [00:10:02]  Well Crystal, you are not a secret socialist. I think you're pretty  open about your socialism, so I don't, I don't know why there's -

Crystal Fincher: [00:10:07] Oh my gosh -

Marcus Harrison Green: [00:10:08]  No,I'll definitely correct myself then - yeah, it was 10,000  signatures. I think I was thinking of the initiative that we'll be  talking about. The citywide initiative, potentially city wide  initiative, that we'll be talking about soon. But, all that being said -  yeah, I got to completely agree with you in terms of that last primary  too. I think it was - my read on that whole thing was it seems that the  sort of big business class and the Amazons of the world got a little too  greedy with trying to go after Sawant, if you will. In the sense of  they wanted an all or nothing type thing. And it was if they, I think as  you said, if you looked at that primary in terms of policy-wise, I  mean, people in that district - they were majority largely - they were  all about the head tax. They were all about very progressive policies,  right?

Now, the people  who maybe voted against Sawant in that primary, maybe they didn't  necessarily like her tone or tactics, per se, but I think they're in  agreement with her policies largely. And I thought, honestly, that if  Amazon truly had wanted to get Sawant out of that position, they would  have tried to play the long game of like, Okay. Let's try to get  somebody like, I want to say, I think Zachary DeWolf, the current school  board director, was running in that race and pretty much had all of the  same politics more or less than Sawant, except he came across as - it's  more of his tone was more measured, you might say, right? It's somebody  who would "reach across the aisle." I think if they had - if Amazon had  truly wanted to get Sawant out, they would have tried to either just  stay out of that race or try to, you know, more or less back somebody  like DeWolf who could - whose tone people might've liked a little bit  better. But instead, and then, you know, this election cycle, they get a  DeWolf. The next election cycle, then maybe they go for somebody who  was more to their liking or what have you. But instead I think they  tried to go for that all or nothing approach and it ended up being  nothing. And shame on, you know, and they had egg on their face  somewhat.

Crystal Fincher: [00:12:21]  Yeah, well, I mean, I think that the tone of the political conversation  in Seattle over the past 15 years has shifted to the left. No question.  You even look at the Council that we had 10 years ago versus the  Council that we have now. And, you know, on the Seattle spectrum, which  is not a Republican leading to Democratic spectrum. But on the  Democratic spectrum, it shifted from one end to the other. And I think  that it's hard for a lot of people to contextualize that. And they're  still back 10 years ago and thinking that policy and rhetoric from 10  years ago is going to fly today. And it doesn't, it sounds farcical,  really.

Marcus Harrison Green: [00:13:10] I wholeheartedly agree with you. <laughter>

Crystal Fincher: [00:13:12] That was the little sub-comment... <laughter> I have some comments in mind!

Marcus Harrison Green: [00:13:13] Some things we were talking about prior to the recording - yes!

Crystal Fincher: [00:13:20]  Um, but you know, this is probably a good transition to talking about  what you just mentioned, which is the new initiative, a charter  amendment change, that will be put on the ballot for City of Seattle.  That is being messaged as - a way to compassionately provide services  for homeless people, and to make sure they have resources, and we're  funding housing, and we're funding services. And also saying that  they're going to get more aggressive with sweeps. And basically saying  that they can keep sidewalks clear, they can clear public areas.  Certainly, for all of the - we've talked a lot about the dog whistles  and the coded language that go into cleaning up Seattle streets and  keeping our city clean and, and - which are all ways to say, We don't  want a visible reminder of people who're unhoused. We don't want to see  or deal with it, and do whatever you can do to just get it out of my  world and my reality. Which is really manifested through these sweeps  that we've been talking a lot about recently. So I guess what's your  take on this legislation?

Marcus Harrison Green: [00:14:50]  Yeah. I mean, you know, I know this isn't a perfect parallel,  certainly, but certainly I think that at least when it comes to local  politics, it's a decent approximation. When I was reading through this, I  was thinking a lot about some of the stuff that's going on in Georgia  now with sort of these voter suppression laws and the - it's sort of a  logical explanation, or I'll say illogical, but there are these "sound  logical arguments" that people were making for some of these appeals.  And it's kind of like, well, look - if there was technically like, the  onus is on you, right, as the person making this - trying to implement  these laws. And are trying to get these laws passed, I should say. If  the onus is on you to prove that there's something wrong, right? I mean,  is there something wrong with how people vote now, or whatever, that  needs to be fixed?

In  this case, right, is there something wrong, right now, with how these  sweeps and so forth are being implemented? That they're, I mean, are  they not aggressive enough for you? Like what is, you know, what - I  just don't understand the need for this right now. Other than, as you  were saying, people essentially just don't want to see any type of  blight on their fair city or what have you. And are trying to  essentially make it more and more of a hardship on people who are  unhoused to be in areas that are "public spaces" or public amenities.

And  so for me, I mean, this just seems like an extremely - just extremely  callous potential initiative that is couched in this language of  compassion and love. And we're all in this together, but we all are not,  quite frankly.

Crystal Fincher: [00:16:48]  Yeah, and you nailed it right there. It is cloaked in the language of  compassion. And you can't get any more forward than the coalition  calling itself Compassionate Seattle, who filed this petition to amend  the charter amendment. And Erica Barnett and PubliCola have been  following this issue for quite some time. I know Erica basically called  this development and this happening. And as we look at this, there's  certainly - you know, I think everyone can agree. And I see Lisa  Daugaard in here, who's Director of the Public Defender Association. And  she says, Hey, this is about creating alternatives to living outdoors  and really saying that, Hey, we have to do the work to keep people from  living in public. People shouldn't be living in public.

And  on that, I think there's broad agreement. People should not be forced  to live in public. There should be effective and compassionate and  respectful shelter alternatives and paths to stable, permanent housing. I  think the question is - the mandate in here to ensure that parks and  public spaces are open and clear of encampments, is a clear direction  and clear indication to return to aggressive sweeps. And to return to  just default, I see someone in public - call the police, get them out.  And afraid - go ahead.

Marcus Harrison Green: [00:18:27]  Oh, I'm sorry. Uh, no, I was just gonna say that it's - yeah, I mean  it's, as you said, I mean, it's very Orwellian language with which  they're using to again, try to promote what is a very callous and cruel  practice, right? I mean,it's one thing if you do have shelter space that  is open and available and accessible to folks. And as you said, there's  nobody, I don't think, anybody across the board who doesn't think or  doesn't know, I should say at this point, that we need to aggressively  build more shelter space and more housing for folks.

And  I think - what the last, I believe in the PubliCola story that ran on  this, it was something like $400 million a year or something is needed  county-wide, I want to say, for additional housing for our unhoused  population. So, I mean,it isn't as if we just have this shelter space,  our leader can snap our fingers and it automatically materializes. And  that we have this abundance of that, which will allow people to go into  more stable housing if this initiative was to pass. So I, again, it's  just a very callous and cruel way to try to implement this. And I hope  that folks can see through this and, just as a correction earlier, this  is the one that would need 33,000 signatures.

Crystal Fincher: [00:20:04]  Yeah. And just kind of a recap of what this does, you're absolutely  right - need 30,000 valid signatures from Seattle voters. It'll create  2,000 new units of emergency or permanent housing. Two very different  things. Very, very broad category that includes everything from 24-7  shelters, congregate shelters. It says that those 2,000 have to be  created within one year and mandate that a minimum of 12% of the city's  general fund goes to a new fund inside the Human Services Department.

And  while that's wonderful to message, the City already spends 11% in this  category right now, so lots of people are going, Okay, but what's the  difference. And then you're saying 2,000 new units of any kind of  housing. How does that address the much larger number of unhoused people  who are on the streets right now in Seattle?

Marcus Harrison Green: [00:21:07]  Well, and where's that housing going to be placed? Is there going to be  wraparound services tied to it? Right, I mean, there's just so many  questions that they obviously haven't answered, or bothered to answer,  quite frankly, with this. And that betrays the fact that I don't think  they really care. I think they care more about just getting folks out of  parks and these public spaces and out of their sight.

Crystal Fincher: [00:21:33]  Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, even just - it can allocate funding  and money, but one point that Erica Barnett has made is that - look at  how long it has taken, even with money earmarked and, Hey, it's funded -  to just build housing. It has been a longterm, lengthy, delayed thing,  especially when the mayor and Council do not agree. We've been trying to  get a few thousand units of housing built for Durkan's entire term. She  made big promises coming in on what she was going to do and has  basically crept along and hasn't come close to what she had intended.  So, yeah. It's great and wonderful and everything to allocate resources,  but is that going to change the entire dynamic of politics in Seattle  to make these housing units appear?

And  among the 2,000, how many of them are going to be units that people who  are unhoused can immediately occupy, with the services to help move  them to more permanent housing. That looks like it is coming nowhere  close to addressing the issue, and really like it was just thrown in the  initiative to say, Hey, but look, we're doing something, we're actually  helping, in order to sneak in the provision of - Hey, we can keep all  public places and spaces clear, regardless of whether there is actually a  place and services for people to land, if you do say you can't be in  this space. So, and again, when you look at the people who are funding  it and the rhetoric that they've used leading up to now, certainly it  does not necessarily give you confidence that they are looking at this  through, despite their name, a compassionate view of people who are  dealing with homelessness on the streets and helping them to get out of  that situation. Seems like it's more targeted to preventing people from  having to look at people who are unhoused.

Marcus Harrison Green: [00:23:39]  No, I agree, and as a mentor of mine used to say about initiatives and  public policy efforts, always look at the company somebody keeps. That's  usually a good indicator of what they actually think. Not what they  say. So, there you go.

Crystal Fincher: [00:23:55]  Absolutely. But especially in Seattle where people have gotten real  savvy when it comes to wrapping issues and all of the progressive and  compassionate words and everyone says the right things. But if you look  at their behavior, and if you look at where they're at on policy before,  those tell very different stories. And my goodness, there sure is a  bright history of people's big funders being a very good predictor of  where they're going to land on issues despite rhetoric that they have  given before the election. So I hope Seattle voters take that into  account.

So I want to  pivot and talk about an article that you wrote, a column that you had in  the Times this week, which was just so exactly on the nose. And I just  want to let you really talk about and explain the issue overall.

Marcus Harrison Green: [00:24:59] Yeah. Thank you so much for providing space and time for that, Crystal.

Yeah.  So the - wrote an article that appeared in Thursday's Seattle Times.  It'll be in the South Seattle Emerald on Sunday, for those who can't get  past the paywall for the Times. But, essentially, it was calling out  the facts. That when we have deaths in South Seattle, and they've,  honestly, largely been Black males who have been the victims of gun  violence. In that area, we kind of shrug our shoulders and, you know,  I'm a lifelong South Seattleite and it hasn't changed in the 30 some odd  years that I've lived here. It seems like in this area of town, right,  there's always a level of detachment and disconnection with the wider,  larger city.

And, I  remember there were times and bringing an example forward of my friend,  Latrel Williams, who I actually talked to his mother for this - kind of  opened the article with her. And he's a man that I knew from high school  as a friend, who died four years ago. Some people believe that it was a  - that he just happened to be in the wrong place, wrong time. And when  he died, he left a son, left a mother, left various friends around. And I  just remember the reality over how most media covered the story - it  was just another statistic. It's just another guy who got one brief  sentence in a story that fits the overall narrative that this area is so  much more dangerous. And it's ultimately because of the pathology of,  you know, Black folks that we're just, you know, I guess in red or  inherently more violent than other people.

And,  quite frankly, I just got tired of that narrative. Tired. We all have  been tired of that for quite some time. And I wanted to make sure that  people knew that our lives, as cliche as it's become now, but it stays  true. That our lives matter. Our lives matter. And I'm just so tired of  this sort of asymmetrical compassion shown to people. If it happens in  other areas of the City, it's a tragedy. When it happens here, it's a  statistic. And there's just too often that we've - that people give lip  service and virtue signaling to the fact that Black lives matter, yada  yada yada. Well, okay then can you show me that you can do it right? Can  you show me more than just rhetoric on Twitter? Can you show me more  than just rhetoric on - at a speech? Can you show me when you actually  invest in our communities?

We've  known - social science has shown, for the longest dang time, that the  reason that gun violence is concentrated in the areas is because they  have systemically been divested in. We know that, and we know that those  areas that have been - that systemically, faced systemic disinvestment  have been areas that were subject to redlining, subject to housing  discrimination, subject to inferior educational resources than other  places. And those places usually match with communities of color, where  communities of color live, and specifically with the Black community.

And  so, if we know that it's because of a lack of investment that these  things continue to happen, you would think then the solution would be to  actually invest in these communities. And yet, that continues to not be  the case. And so I just wanted to finally just call that out in this  -again, the City that is supposedly the flagship for all that is woke  and is all this progressive, supposedly in our country and yet, right,  we can - we've had five homicides so far this year, at least as we have  up to the broadcast date of this podcast. Four of them have taken place  in South Seattle. And yet, I mean, who - where is our mayor? Where's the  City Council in saying, Yeah, this is just as much of a crisis as  anything else, and we are going to address this by providing some level  of, I shouldn't even say some level, but we are - a maximal level,  right, of investment into this area and into this community that we have  neglected for so, so long. And, as of now, I haven't heard any of them  say anything.

And so, as I  said at the end of my article, as we - as people continue to deliberate  and twiddle their thumbs, there are going to be more people who die.  And ultimately that is a choice. That's a choice that we are making. Um,  and it's, it's sad. It's very sad.

Crystal Fincher: [00:29:45]  It is absolutely sad and a conversation that we have been having in  community for so long. And  even - you hit on the head again - the  disinvestment in communities. This isn't something that just organically  came to be, this is the result of an abandonment by the City, by the  public, and then a subsequent almost well, literally blaming the  community for its own problem and expecting - with fewer, with lower  investments, fewer resources, just, you know, Hey, fix it yourself. And I  know it kills me every time I see. And as a Black mother of a Black  son, just - when there is a shooting in the South End, there is this  dismissiveness and, you know, Well, what did they do to deserve it? It  was probably a gang thing or a drug thing, and somehow they deserved it.  And just seeing the reflex.

And  it is so sad that it is now a reflex that grieving parents now have -  to show that their child's life had value and was worthy of being valued  and celebrated and is actually a loss. Like to have to feel like you  have to justify to the broader public that the loss of your child  actually is a loss to the community in a way that is assumed to be the  case in other areas and in other communities. It's just such a cruel,  cruel thing for someone to have to endure on top of the loss of their  child and gets me every single time.

Marcus Harrison Green: [00:31:35]  Yeah. And it's almost as if every - we're required to all be Emmett  Till when we lose a family, Emmett Till's mother when we lose a family  member. And, you know, for those who don't know, I'm sure listeners of  your show do, but, when - Emmett Till was a young Black man who was, you  know, beaten beyond recognition and lynched because he had supposedly  whistled at a white woman going down the street. And so his mother  decided to have an open casket at his funeral so people could see  exactly - so the country at the time could see exactly what racism had  done to so many people. So, was doing, I should say, how it was  terrorizing Black people. And it seems like we haven't changed much to  be quite frank with you since that time, in the sense that we continue  to have to almost, you know, showcase, and showcase our pain, and  showcase our struggle, and showcase our heartache, just to make people  give a damn about us as individuals, us as a community, us as Black  people. And, um, yeah, I don't, I don't know what else to say, to be  honest with you.

Crystal Fincher: [00:32:47]  Yeah, no, I mean, but you certainly said what needed to be said in your  column and I just deeply and sincerely thank you for writing it. And  for continuing to be a voice of strength and clarity and that's just so  necessary in our community. And not just the Black community, but  overall. And you are a gem in Seattle and I just appreciate you.

Marcus Harrison Green: [00:33:15] Well, it takes one to know one, Crystal. It takes one to know one.

Crystal Fincher: [00:33:20]  With that - that is our time. I want to thank everyone for listening to  Hacks and Wonks on KVRU 105.7 FM, this Friday, April 2nd, 2021. Our  chief audio engineer at KVRU is Maurice Jones Jr. The producer  of Hacks  and Wonks is Lisl Stadler. And our wonderful co-host today was South  Seattle Emerald publisher and Seattle Times columnist, Marcus Harrison  Green. You can find Marcus on Twitter @mhgreen3000. You can find me on  Twitter @finchfrii, spelled F I N C H F R I I. And now you can find Hock  - you can find Hacks and Wonks on iTunes, Spotify, or wherever else you  get your podcasts and just type "Hacks and Wonks" into the search bar.  Be sure to subscribe, to get our Friday almost live show and our  mid-week show sent directly to your podcast stream.

Thanks for tuning in and we'll talk to you next time.